Fic, or lack thereof

[innocent_lex]

What is it about some shows that spawn a thousand fic writers and others that just don't? Is it the characters? The writing? The need to fill in things that the show's writers haven't bothered to address? It's hard to miss all the SG-1 and SGA fic out there, but look for NCIS or Without A Trace and there's very little. Are those shows too perfect, the characters not interesting enough or is it that scifi tends to attract writers? (though that doesn't explain Harry Potter fans).

At this point I should mention I don't read het. It just doesn't interest me as a story. So when I talk about there being very little to read, it's possible there is het fic out there that I skip over due to complete lack of interest.

It takes me a while to get to know a show enough to want to write for it, and much, much longer to get around to actually writing. I'm in the middle of an NCIS/SG-1 crossover at the moment (well, 'in the middle' meaning I've started) as well as another SG-1 story, but there is an urge to write WAT and some pure NCIS. Also maybe a bit of West Wing. And Man From Uncle because that would be oodles of fun *g*. Still, if the world was peopled with lots of mes then there would be not a great deal of fic out there at all.

So anyway, just musing, wondering, pondering.

Comments

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I was at a panel here at MW about why cop/procedural shows attract fans, so I have a few thoughts on this subject courtesy of the panel participants... the consensus of opinion was that certain shows have more space for fanfic to work in, and often those are police shows.

However, it can also depend on what people are into that fandom for, whether it's the A story (case solving) or the B story (character stuff). If they're into the B story, chances are their fic is going to be more h/c if they're gen-inclined, or het or slash if they're into the hot monkey sex. Sometimes the show will go one way and the fans another, depending on how the B story is handled - take Without a Trace, which it was felt started off very A story-heavy and has turned into more of a soap opera with various female agent's revolving bedroom doors. If you like that, then you're away, but if you're into the A story then you're going to be even less impressed...

And then there's the whole fans-not-wanting-to-do-research which also impedes the production of gen stories that are heavy on the A story and case solving. Because heaven knows that anything which involves something less than instant gratification is Bad and Wrong. ;)

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

All interesting stuff, thanks. I agree on the split between A and B stories that attract different authors, but I think that's more of an artificial split. When writers manage to seamlessly meld the A and B is when I get really interested. It's very rare in standard US / UK telly - I think Canadian telly tends to do the mix a bit better (though I suspect I only get to see the best of Canadian telly versus the whole range of US / UK).

WAT is one that I loved when it began and gave up on completely when it became Jack starring in a soap opera. We're getting a new series this week, I think it's 6, and I figured I'd give the show another try. I'm not expecting a great deal, though, and if it's still a soap opera then the series link will go the way of the dodo.

It's interesting that there is talk of lots of space for fic in police shows, because NCIS is one of the prime examples where there's very little fic of any kind, and the fic that's out there is predominately het or slash. Same with WAT. I haven't particularly looked for other police show fic so that's my sample - not huge.

I have more experience with scifi, and the vast swathe of fic for various scifi shows somewhat reinforces the message you mentioned about there being space to work in for writers - the possibilities out there on other planets or in the future are unlimited. But again, doesn't it still come down to characters in the end? And not that those characters have to shag each other senseless every chance they get but actually covering the range of human interaction.

Research is definitely overrated when it comes to fic, but it's quite often overrated when it comes to writing for television or film (see previous post about Indiana Jones, for example) and sadly the idea that these things are not important because the audience are too stupid to care is widespread.

Then again, right now I'm writing a book that can only benefit from a total lack of research. I love it. *g*

[mortuus.livejournal.com]

I love WAT (and it's the only non-scifi fandom I've tried to enter), so let me warn you that season 6 is the worst. There are a couple great episodes (the Christmas one is adorable), but it is all about Samantha, Jack, and SamandJack. It was proceeding sort of okay before the strike, but I think the writers totally lost their minds after the strike. I actually wanted to throw things at the TV, or at least have Jack get fired.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Oh really? Oy. Thanks ever so much for the warning. That would be enough to make me throw things at the telly. I cannot stand Samantha - yet another prime example of a stereotype instead of a strong woman - and Jack is nowhere near interesting enough as a character for the show to be all about him (yet another stereotype). Blech.

It's such a shame, too, because WAT had a real chance of being a proper team show, with fascinating characters and even more fascinating character interactions, but it just fell off a cliff into soapland and didn't bother with bringing any kind of depth.

So which eps are worth watching? I'll look out for those and skip the rest.

[mortuus.livejournal.com]

"Claus and Effect" is the Christmas one. Definitely worth a watch. It's light-hearted and the main characters are fun in this ep.

I also enjoyed "Clean Up", the second ep of the season. (There is an overarching storyline this season, which shows up in most eps, including this one. It started out fairly good, but then pretty much just took a nosedive after the strike. I think the writers didn't have the time to actually do what they wanted with the full arc, and it shows. However, the stand-alone storyline of this episode is good.)

"Run" I recommend for the missing person storyline, but this is where Samantha's annoying storyline really kicks in, so... I don't know. I like the missing person story in this ep a lot, though.

That's probably it. Before the strike, I thought it was worth watching, even though it was too Samantha and Jack heavy (I love the team dynamic, but the team dynamic is really missing this season). After the strike I wanted to take out Jack with a flamethrower and I just wanted the Samantha storyline to finally come to end and stop torturing us.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Okay, Clean Up is on next week, so I'll get to see that one. I'll look out for the others.

Sadly I'm one of those people who think TPTB only brought on Elena so people would stop saying the actress who plays Samantha is the worst thing on the show, so having a focus on her, on a ship that still hasn't died like it should, and on a character I find really dull (Jack) won't endear me to most of S6, I'm sure.

[lachli.livejournal.com]

Samantha is a very unlikeable character and one I've never warmed to, I've never been so happy to see someone dumped as when Martin politely told her to shove it, LOL.

My favourite female character would have to be Megan Reeves in Numbers, I find her delightfully written and acted.

Criminal Minds is everything that WaT could and should have been and I much, much prefer it now.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the Samantha perspective, and it doesn't help that I think the actress is terrible. I'd have loved more Viv - excellent female character there.

I've tried Criminal Minds but it was so focussed on one bloke (yes, again it's all about a main person and other random minions) who I found really dull that I switched off. I hear it's more team focussed these days so I may give later seasons a try.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

BTW, I've been watching the most recent series of Numbers on ITV3 (3 I think?) and Megan is doing a lot of sitting down. Is the actress pregnant, by any chance?

I agree with you that she's a great character. Really good at her job, capable, smart, interested in one of the smartest people she's ever met and completely unconcerned at his foibles or at the fact that the relationship's going slow (i.e. not some kind of needy stereotype female character). She has so many pluses and no negatives that I can spot.

[obelix]

Yes at the time she was pregnant. We had a great time playing "how will they hide the bump this week?" game...

Megan is the best female character on Numb3rs although Liz isn't too bad and gets better in the later seasons.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Yes, Liz does seem to be improving and now isn't just a love-interest (thank goodness).

[lachli.livejournal.com]

Don't get your hopes up for season 6, it really makes me want to weep for what my show was and what they turned it into. I enjoyed the odd episode, but the writing is so odd and uneven that it beggars belief that they paid writers to produce this drivel.

I think WaT peaked at season 3 and has been on a downward spiral ever since. I actively hated Jack Malone by the end of it and never want to see him again and at one point he was my favourite, but he really becomes an immensley unlikeable jerk. Sam doesn't fare much better either.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

And another nail in the coffin of WAT S6. Sadly, I think WAT peaked in S1 and has been going downhill ever since. I watched for the boys and for Viv and they had less and less to do over the years so I bailed.

Uneven writing is fairly common, but obviously the audience puts up with it because ratings stay high and shows are renewed. We're obviously too discerning for our own good! ;-P

[nialla]

I love Viv. She feels like a "real" female character to me, not one driven by her pursuit of a romance.

I recall when Viv had health problems, but refused to tell anyone. There were some suspicions and such, but they had no real idea what was going on until she collapsed.

That is so my mother. I got into trouble with her three sisters a while back when I made a passing comment to one about my mother's diabetes causing a complication that led to her being hospitalized.

They had no idea she was diabetic, but I've known for well over a decade when she was diagnosed, but had no idea she'd never told anyone outside of me and my father. I was getting it from all sides for a time -- for not telling and for telling.

I think one reason so many procedural shows stay so high in the ratings is they tend to be repetitive in nature. You don't really have to know much if any backstory to follow what's happening, so it's easier for "drive by" viewers.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

I can understand the drive by thing, certainly. And I've watched quite a bit of stuff that way myself. I've recently been watching CSI (the original) right from the start and have figured out that it was both the science and the characters / character relationships that drew me in. Two things bored me - the splitting up of the team, because I lost the relationships side, and the Grissom / Sarah thing because that's absolutely not the kind of relationship I'm talking about! But it's a programme that's very easy to dip in and out of, as are most of the procedurals, even NCIS to an extent.

There's a point, though, where I don't want realism. The Viv thing you mentioned is absolutely fine and very realistic in my experience (and obviously yours!). The situation where the world is ending in every episode (a la Eastenders) just turns me off completely.

[readerjane]

I think the elements that spark fic (whether about a television show, novel series or movie) are: characters engaging enough to make the viewers care about them, enough worldbuilding to give a basic environment to play with, and holes. Plot holes, characterization holes, thematic holes -- there has to be something missing. It may seem missing only to that particular ficwriter, but there has to be something to make them want the story to go differently than the way canon told it.

It's a tension: if canon strikes a perfect chord with the viewer, there's no urge to meddle. But if canon is repellant, boring or unengaging, the ficwriter won't care enough about the story or the characters to want "better" for them.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Huh, my response to this has apparently got lost in the ether, so I'll just say it was erudite and articulate.

Er, it was something about holes and additions... Yep. Okay, I agree with you on the holes, but also think a lot of fiction is about extending the universe and the characters to show things that the show's writers didn't have time (or the inclination) to include.

And I love the idea that fanfic writing is just the urge to meddle. I get that whole "you pesky meddling kids!" vibe from it - wonderful!

[lachli.livejournal.com]

Coming from SG fandom I was very disappointed in the lack of WaT fic when I discovered it 4 years ago and the lack of fandom in general. It took a lot of hunting around to find the fic, but there was some really good quality stuff and I love to revisit it. Not sure what's written nowadays because I'm so disappointed by the show that I haven't been looking.

Criminal Minds is another awesome show that has so little fic that I could cry. I've come to the conclusion that because they're procedural shows people are put off by how complicated a fic may become if they were to write it. Yet some of the best WaT fic doesn't revolve around the cases at all, just the people, and IMO Danny and Martin.

[nialla]

Any WaT Danny/Martin recs you'd like to share? [puppy dog eyes]

I've found some, but there's not much to start with, so it narrows down the chances that any of it will actually be "good" by whatever a reader's definition of "good" is.

I do think procedurals are more difficult to write than a sci fi based show where literally anything can happen, including touching the wrong alien item and having an mpreg story. Like you though, I can't figure out why more don't write stories focused on the characters. PWPs don't require much procedural info, do they? ;)

On the other end of the spectrum, there are some fandoms that have a lot of fic, but if they don't fit your needs -- pairing, writing style, etc. -- then it's just as bad as not being able to find any at all.

I'm not regularly watching WaT nowadays either, but I haven't watched SGA in about a season and a half, yet I'm still reading John/Rodney fic like I always did. I guess I'm more into the fic version of the show than the "reality" but WaT just doesn't have enough of a fic presence to support that type of reading habit.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

I can recommend ELG's really long WAT fic, which is gen and which I loved: http://www.bunnyfic.com/ELG/ColdCase.htm

And also a slash fic written by someone called aesc, and it's here: http://www.dannyandmartin.com/viewstory.php?sid=279. It's AU and I confess not to really knowing what the history was, but the relationship between the boys was realistic.

That's about it from me. If you haven't seen the Pretty FBI Boys site before, please don't get your hopes up, though it's nowhere near as, er, variable as the main NCIS fic archive.

[nialla]

[bookmarks for later reading]

It's sad when you do find an archive and it just doesn't have much worth reading.

I sometimes wonder if it's a "chicken and egg" scenario. Is there not much fic because there's not much already done to inspire other writers? Without well-written fic, we can't have well-written fic? Does that make any sort of sense? ;)

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

It does make sense, yes, even though it's weird. *g*

You would think, though, that inspiration would come from the source material. But sometimes it just doesn't. Most peculiar.

[lachli.livejournal.com]

I'm hopeless at telling people why I think stories are good *g*, but I'm more than happy to share what I've enjoyed and which authors I favoured.

I'm assuming you found www.dannyandmartin.com . Some of my favourites on there are A Long Time Coming, an au, which I don't usually like, but I loved this one so much. http://www.dannyandmartin.com/viewstory.php?sid=279 and all her stories, she's very talented. She writes loads of Atlantis fics too I believe.

http://www.dannyandmartin.com/viewuser.php?uid=24 is another writer that I loved to read.

http://www.dannyandmartin.com/viewuser.php?uid=87 has written one of my all time favourites http://www.dannyandmartin.com/viewstory.php?sid=298 I literally cried laughing during it. She has a wicked sense of humour and some of Danny's comments about Sam are so naughty, but funny. I totally adore this. Oh and the whole scene in the bathroom where Martin has to wear leather trousers, wow, hot! http://www.dannyandmartin.com/viewstory.php?sid=322 is a Danny that I thought I would hate, working as a rent boy, but I loved it.
This is a list of nominees for some D/M fanfic awards a few years back.
http://community.livejournal.com/dmfanficawards/1071.html#cutid1


http://community.livejournal.com/operation_pi/profile is an lj devoted to one fic, told in diary style and it's really quite amazing, made me laugh and cry.

I hope you like D/M because that's all I ever really read, anything with Sam made me hurl and there was very little gen to be found.

Hope you like these and that there may be a new one or two that you've not seen before.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Snap on the aesc-fic! Have you read Lori's fic?

[nialla]

Yes, I'm definitely a Danny/Martin girl. I seem to have a thing about having "contrasting personalities" in my slash pairings. I guess I like the banter that can happen, and if they go to far and actually argue, then there's the fun of making up. ;)

Thanks for the recs, I'll be bookmarking those for later reading.

I know what you mean about not being able to say "why" you liked something. It's very hard to explain why something works for you. It's even more difficult to explain why a much-lauded author/story doesn't work for you. It just does or it doesn't, and that's about all that can be said sometimes.

[nialla]

Can I go with "all of the above" as an answer? ;)

I can't say much on the writing side, because I can count the number of non-parody fic I've written on one hand, and none of it is online, only in print zines. Yes, I am that old. ;)

As a reader though, I find myself searching for something that appeals to me, and I'm using what has become my default mode for profic -- follow the authors. Once I find an author I like, I tend to follow them (and often those they write with or recommend)even if they change fandoms, as long as it's one I'm vaguely familiar with. I do the same with pro authors too, I'll read them if they cross genres if I like their style.

I often get frustrated when I find a new (or even old, just new to me) show and I can't find a fic archive. Some older shows just predate the group archive concept, or they just never "took off" online to have much.

I came to Live Journal when SGA fandom seemed to set up shop here. A lot of SG-1 fans were part of the migration as well, so I know where to find those pockets of fandom and it's very prolific.

The problem is not all of the fandoms I'm interested in are well represented in LJ Land, and even when I do find fic here, quality is a lot more iffy than what I'm used to in SG1/SGA fandoms.

That's not to say SG1/SGA writers don't put out a fair amount of crap too (as the saying goes, 99% of everything is crap), but I know the fandom and the writers well enough to generally know who to avoid. In other fandoms, I'm sort of flailing around trying to find anything readable (from the personal preferences and/or the writing skills angle), and thrilled beyond measure when I find someone I "know" from another fandom writing there.

Some shows give me enough of what I like onscreen and I don't feel as much of an urge to search out fic. But the bigger problem is even if I do want fic, finding where it's hiding is very difficult for me. I'd love to read more NCIS Gibbs/Tony (perhaps with a side of McGee *g*) or more WAT Danny/Martin, but I just haven't found what I'm looking for, or at least not as much of it as I'd like.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

I do the 'follow the author' method, too, and have found some good stuff that way. The rise of LJ has coincided with there being fewer archives out there (can't state a causal link without lots of research) and it's harder to find fics that I want to read.

The thing about fic is that it follows characters that I know and love (or at least like). In the same way that I've moved away from films and towards series television instead, I read far fewer published novels than I do fics because I prefer reading about characters I know than new characters every time. Also, it's easier to carry fic around (on my PDA) as most books I want to read aren't ebooks as yet. Published books disappoint me less than fic, though, but I do take longer picking the ones I want to read.

Maybe I should just give up on fic for 6 months and read through my bookshelves, and when I come back the magic fic fairy will have populated t'internets with enough wonderful fic to keep me going for years. *g*

[lachli.livejournal.com]

I really miss archives, I used to adore going to Heliopolis for an SG fix. LJ provides a wealth of talent, but it can be so hard to find it and then to remember to go back and get the next installment. I tend to subsribe to newsletters in a way to keep up with fic and to use delicious to bookmark.

[nialla]

I tend to think of LJ as "beta of last resort." I post my stuff there first, and even after a good beta reading there can be something missed that's caught there. Keeps my final copy in the archive cleaner that way.

I think a lot of other authors see it that way too, and most of the LJ authors tend to archive, and most post links to communities too. The problem seems to be finding the communities, because LJ's search function doesn't work worth a damn.

I generally like the comms that are centered around a particular pairing, simply because I tend to have one (or sometimes more) OTP per show and by focusing on those I don't have to wade through all the other pairings I don't like to read.

I've been reading more fanfic that profic for quite a while. I take it in spells for some reason, because when I first started reading fic I read it almost exclusively for a time before switching back to almost all profic.

I think it partly depends on availability of new materials by authors I like in either fan or pro flavors, as well as my mood. You generally can't find a lot of m/m stories that replicate slash stories in the first place, but there's something akin to "comfort food" about reading stories with characters you're already familiar with, even if it's total AU versions.

I think one of my biggest pet peeves about folks posting to LJ are those who toss up stuff completely unbetaed and they're not interested in concrit, just praise. I'm too old school of a fan to give out praise where it's not warranted.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

This week I seem to barely have time to read anything, and when on the train I resorted to checking email and watching episodes of things because it took less brainpower. Next week will be better. I hope.

Re profic 'slash', it's really not like slash (or at least, not that I've found). Or maybe it's not like the slash I like to read. Or maybe I've just not found the right stuff. Or... I dunno. Too tired. Not sure there's a right answer.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the answers here are spot on.

I'd like to add, though, that, in addition to the setting and the characters themselves being the turn-ons, I think perhaps the underlying Architype might have a lot to do with it as well, especially when it's mixed with an open-ended 'verse to play in.

With the Harry Potter books (and the Lord of the Rings books) the 'verses there are wide enough that there's enough latitude for the ficcers to play in - and a variety enough of characters living out different architypes that it can be a real fantastical turn-on.

The shows that don't develop fic-followings - from reading the shows listed here, it sounds as if the characters involved aren't engaging or the premise and underlying types aren't deep enough to engage the creative writers in the audience.

In other shows, like Buffy in the first five seasons, especially, the writers covered the architypes and tropes well enough that even though I didn't miss an episode if I could help it, I didn't feel the need to write about the characters or their world at all. Or read fic about them.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. I adored Babylon 5 but have no urge to read fic about it - the show itself was so well-written that it satisfied me (though I absolutely didn't miss an episode!). Buffy lost me in S6, though I did return to watch S7 because I knew it was going to be the last season. Didn't need to read fic about that, either, but when I did have a look to see what was out there I figured there were some extremely twisted minds writing the fic.

I'm not a fan of LotR - just not at all interested in it - and don't need to read any HP beyond the books, but I can see the scope there would be in those worlds. The whole of Daniel Jackson's journey is enthralling to me, on the same lines of this ordinary (but not so ordinary) person who does extraordinary things.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I think Daniel Jackson, Indiana Jones, Gulliver, Gilgamesh and others in that vein - the clever explorers - stem from Odysseus characters types. I mean, who *doesn't* like Odysseus and his adventures? For me, that's the root of DJ's appeal. There are a few other mini-tropes mixed in there in different proportions (eg, DJ is an orphan; Indiana Jones is an adventurer; etc) that make each of these characters more of an individual.

I love stories. :-D

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

I love stories and I love characters. I love science and adventure, so if you add in one or both of those too you're well on the way to hooking me.